Comments on: Is the Certified Scrum Master Program the Visual Basic of agile development? http://blog.coryfoy.com/2009/08/is-the-certified-scrum-master-program-the-visual-basic-of-agile-development/ Agile Coaching, Ruby, .NET, Debugging, why not? Fri, 03 Sep 2010 01:46:10 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.9.1 hourly 1 By: They Could Have Been Contenders - Cory Foy, LLC - Agile Training and Consulting - Enterprise Agility Redefined http://blog.coryfoy.com/2009/08/is-the-certified-scrum-master-program-the-visual-basic-of-agile-development/comment-page-1/#comment-964 They Could Have Been Contenders - Cory Foy, LLC - Agile Training and Consulting - Enterprise Agility Redefined Wed, 17 Feb 2010 07:37:07 +0000 http://blog.cornetdesign.com/?p=469#comment-964 [...] And honestly, I think it could have been a great thing. Love it or hate it, (and you can see which side I’m on) the CSM has spread through large organizations and smaller companies like wildfire, and the [...] [...] And honestly, I think it could have been a great thing. Love it or hate it, (and you can see which side I’m on) the CSM has spread through large organizations and smaller companies like wildfire, and the [...]

]]> By: Ian Bush http://blog.coryfoy.com/2009/08/is-the-certified-scrum-master-program-the-visual-basic-of-agile-development/comment-page-1/#comment-812 Ian Bush Fri, 04 Sep 2009 14:47:25 +0000 http://blog.cornetdesign.com/?p=469#comment-812 Cory, Upon reading your post and reflecting on a conversation that I had with someone yesterday who was at AGILE 2009, it occurred to me that the Agile world needs some sort of real politic that ensures that people are getting the certifications and then maintaining them. Recently, I completed my PMP certification, and that cert required 4500 hours of project management, at least 30 hours of instruction on project management and a BS degree to be allowed to sit for the exam. Beyond that, if you don't have a degree, you have to have 7500 hours of project experience. All that is documented on an application to become a PMP, and is reviewed automatically for completeness. Then 10% of the applications are randomly selected for documentation purposes, so that the person submitting it is required to provide additional documentation to ensure that they have legitimately met the requirements for the exam. After all the above is completed, you then have to sit for the exam, which is 4 hours and administered in a Prometric facility, where you go through a number of processes to ensure that you aren't cheating on the exam. The comprehensive nature of that process ensures that people do not get "paper-only PMPs". I believe that similar steps should be taken before the CSM becomes a joke. Finally, once people do get the certification, we need to be sure that people are maintaining them through educational credits. Since the worlds of Agile, Scrum and Project Management all have some shared characteristics, I think that as a group, we could allow education development units for PM certs to carry over, or we could treat the contact time at the Agile sessions as some time as well. However this debate works out, my greatest concern is that we are allowing a certification process to become so badly managed as a community that it will have little value down the road. In the end, as Agilistas, we should reverse this course soon, or our practice will become meaningless. Ian Cory,

Upon reading your post and reflecting on a conversation that I had with someone yesterday who was at AGILE 2009, it occurred to me that the Agile world needs some sort of real politic that ensures that people are getting the certifications and then maintaining them.

Recently, I completed my PMP certification, and that cert required 4500 hours of project management, at least 30 hours of instruction on project management and a BS degree to be allowed to sit for the exam. Beyond that, if you don’t have a degree, you have to have 7500 hours of project experience. All that is documented on an application to become a PMP, and is reviewed automatically for completeness. Then 10% of the applications are randomly selected for documentation purposes, so that the person submitting it is required to provide additional documentation to ensure that they have legitimately met the requirements for the exam.

After all the above is completed, you then have to sit for the exam, which is 4 hours and administered in a Prometric facility, where you go through a number of processes to ensure that you aren’t cheating on the exam. The comprehensive nature of that process ensures that people do not get “paper-only PMPs”. I believe that similar steps should be taken before the CSM becomes a joke.

Finally, once people do get the certification, we need to be sure that people are maintaining them through educational credits. Since the worlds of Agile, Scrum and Project Management all have some shared characteristics, I think that as a group, we could allow education development units for PM certs to carry over, or we could treat the contact time at the Agile sessions as some time as well.

However this debate works out, my greatest concern is that we are allowing a certification process to become so badly managed as a community that it will have little value down the road. In the end, as Agilistas, we should reverse this course soon, or our practice will become meaningless.

Ian

]]> By: ScrumButs are the downfall of agile « Cory Foy http://blog.coryfoy.com/2009/08/is-the-certified-scrum-master-program-the-visual-basic-of-agile-development/comment-page-1/#comment-803 ScrumButs are the downfall of agile « Cory Foy Thu, 03 Sep 2009 13:31:18 +0000 http://blog.cornetdesign.com/?p=469#comment-803 [...] recent post about the CSM being the VB of Agile applies here. What gives the software development industry a bad name? It’s not the time to [...] [...] recent post about the CSM being the VB of Agile applies here. What gives the software development industry a bad name? It’s not the time to [...]

]]> By: Tungano http://blog.coryfoy.com/2009/08/is-the-certified-scrum-master-program-the-visual-basic-of-agile-development/comment-page-1/#comment-796 Tungano Thu, 27 Aug 2009 23:35:10 +0000 http://blog.cornetdesign.com/?p=469#comment-796 Dude, wake up. Why do you think VB has this strong presence? Because it works? So without being ACTUAL programmers we are still able to provide customers with value? This inferior language actually shaped C++ into what C# is today. Pragmatic. This VB programmer likes Scrum also. Good luck out there. Dude, wake up. Why do you think VB has this strong presence? Because it works?
So without being ACTUAL programmers we are still able to provide customers with value?
This inferior language actually shaped C++ into what C# is today. Pragmatic.

This VB programmer likes Scrum also.

Good luck out there.

]]> By: Cory Foy http://blog.coryfoy.com/2009/08/is-the-certified-scrum-master-program-the-visual-basic-of-agile-development/comment-page-1/#comment-795 Cory Foy Thu, 27 Aug 2009 18:17:07 +0000 http://blog.cornetdesign.com/?p=469#comment-795 Hi Dan, I apologize - my intention wasn't slamming the language. My point was that if someone has written bad code, and doesn't understand fundamental principles, then either we have to rewrite that code, or train the person - which the target for a lot of people who wrote VB/VBA were non-programmers just trying to get stuff done. On the other hand, with the CSM, we can say that the CSP - or any practitioner level cert - is what matters. With VB apps, we can say quality matters, but unless the app is rewritten, it won't change. The same doesn't hold true of the people. Does that make more sense? Hi Dan,

I apologize – my intention wasn’t slamming the language. My point was that if someone has written bad code, and doesn’t understand fundamental principles, then either we have to rewrite that code, or train the person – which the target for a lot of people who wrote VB/VBA were non-programmers just trying to get stuff done.

On the other hand, with the CSM, we can say that the CSP – or any practitioner level cert – is what matters. With VB apps, we can say quality matters, but unless the app is rewritten, it won’t change. The same doesn’t hold true of the people.

Does that make more sense?

]]> By: Dan Lash http://blog.coryfoy.com/2009/08/is-the-certified-scrum-master-program-the-visual-basic-of-agile-development/comment-page-1/#comment-794 Dan Lash Thu, 27 Aug 2009 17:41:25 +0000 http://blog.cornetdesign.com/?p=469#comment-794 "With Visual Basic, the applications are written. And once they are written, they have to either be rewritten, or retired, and if we want to help those who wrote those programs, we can work to teach them fundamental programming principles." As you said earlier in your article, it's not the lanugage choice that defines the maintainability of an application, the skill of a developer or the quality of the product. I for one also prefer to write in C#, but we simply have a policy at our company that dictates we write in VB.NET. Even though I've successfully been able to integrate C# into our unit tests, given we have 1.4 million lines of VB across 10+ large applications, it just doesn't make sense to switch between languages. So my question to you is, why perpetuate the negative sentiment about the language? “With Visual Basic, the applications are written. And once they are written, they have to either be rewritten, or retired, and if we want to help those who wrote those programs, we can work to teach them fundamental programming principles.”

As you said earlier in your article, it’s not the lanugage choice that defines the maintainability of an application, the skill of a developer or the quality of the product.

I for one also prefer to write in C#, but we simply have a policy at our company that dictates we write in VB.NET. Even though I’ve successfully been able to integrate C# into our unit tests, given we have 1.4 million lines of VB across 10+ large applications, it just doesn’t make sense to switch between languages.

So my question to you is, why perpetuate the negative sentiment about the language?

]]> By: Michael D. Hall http://blog.coryfoy.com/2009/08/is-the-certified-scrum-master-program-the-visual-basic-of-agile-development/comment-page-1/#comment-793 Michael D. Hall Thu, 27 Aug 2009 16:54:47 +0000 http://blog.cornetdesign.com/?p=469#comment-793 Like VB, this is a gateway drug to the larger world of agile. I think the term, "fake it till ya make it" can apply to organizations who are still learning what agile is. By sending their employees to these training sessions they are at least exposing people to the concepts and artifacts of agile development. I think that's better than not getting any exposure at all, despite the fact that they will likely go back to their companies and do agile badly and then just decide that agile isn't a good thing. Sadly, most of these people would do any process badly. But enough people will come through the program and "get it." They'll get exposure they might not have otherwise gotten and pursue that knowledge. They'll also hopefully learn enough while trying to implement agile at that company and if they succeed, great! Otherwise, they'll take what they learned and move onto another organization and try again. Eventually some will make it, and the community will be better for it. Like VB, this is a gateway drug to the larger world of agile. I think the term, “fake it till ya make it” can apply to organizations who are still learning what agile is. By sending their employees to these training sessions they are at least exposing people to the concepts and artifacts of agile development. I think that’s better than not getting any exposure at all, despite the fact that they will likely go back to their companies and do agile badly and then just decide that agile isn’t a good thing. Sadly, most of these people would do any process badly. But enough people will come through the program and “get it.” They’ll get exposure they might not have otherwise gotten and pursue that knowledge. They’ll also hopefully learn enough while trying to implement agile at that company and if they succeed, great! Otherwise, they’ll take what they learned and move onto another organization and try again. Eventually some will make it, and the community will be better for it.

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